onlinetri.com

J'ai envoye ca a Paula Newby Fraser ce soir...en gros c'est une idee pour qu'on arrete de prendre les triathletes pour des pigeons sur les IMs, qu'on implemente une liste d'attente, et que le remboursement si on ne peut pas courir ne soit pas 30% de ce qu'on a paye...J'ai la fleme de traduire...
Mais c'est assez simple.

Il y a peu de chance que ca marche, mais c'est comme une augmentation...si on ne demande pas, on n'en a pas.

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Hi Paula,

something we've been discussing for a while now in the triathlon community but the question is this: why not have a waiting list (for AGers of course...I know you only deal with elites, but usually Melody doesn't answer to that stuff, so maybe you can forward that email to Graham) for Ironman races in North America?

So the deal is this. Right now, after 2-3 days, a race is full. Some people cannot commit a year in advance, quite a few will get injured training for an IM, others may have work commitments etc. So, AGers are asked to drop $450 a year in advance for a year they are not 100% sure to do. However, very few do withdraw from the race, maybe 10% or so. The other point is that if you withdraw, you get a rather miserable $150 back. Consdering most of this is done online, it really isn't justified. I understand that IMNA is a business, and businesses are here to make money. However, triathletes are the customers of this business and it is possible to implement a waiting list, have real refunds, make sure IMNA still gets at least the same benefits and make sure that triathletes do get something more substantial should something prevent them from racing. Technically, it doesn't guarante that IMNA makes more, but IMNA would not get less for sure, and it would certainly do a lot for its image.

Here is a suggestion:
1. when the race is full, start a waiting list
2. Allow withdrawal from a race up to 3 months before an IM with a $350 refund if you can't race, $100 for admin fees
3. from the moment the race is full up to 3 months out, when someone withdraw, the top of the waiting list get the spot.
4. it's not reasonable to have anyone enter later than 3 months out so close entries definitely at this time
5. from 3 months out to 6 weeks out, withdrawal with $150 back (as is the case now).

Now the waiting list thing is really not an overhead for IMNA. It really is a one day work thing. You simply write (or ask someone
to write) a little code that creates the starting list and replaces withdrawals with people from the start list, starting at the top.
(I do research and teach computer science, and I am fairly sure most beginning programmers wouldn't struggle too much with
writing something this simple).

There. Here is the idea. There are probably a few things here and there I haven't thought about, but the conclusion is that IMNA would still make at least the same benefit, this would be a decision most welcome by a huge part of the triathlon population, so, it is really a win-win situation.

Feel free to forward the email to Graham Fraser, or whoever might be interested.

cheers,

Francois

tres bonne initiative, + 1

FanchM, France : one point !

1000 bravos , ils n'ont qu'à prendre exemple sur le CHALLENGE QUELLE ROTH !!
j'y ai souscrit pour la modique somme de 5,50 Euros une assurance annulation intégrale jusqu'à la veille de la course !!
C'est moins pompe à fric que les IM !!

http://www.challenge-roth.com/fra/aktue ... php?ID=487

Je t'ai affecté un beau +1 !! si on ne demande rien !! on n'a rien !! bonne devise !!
Moi, toujours à Roth !! j'ai demandé à ce que les finishers déguisés ou faisant une petite figure de style soient récompensés, car l'animation, la détente, le fun le plaisir, cela va avec le sport !!

Résultat: écoute des orgaisateurs et mise en place du CRAZY FINISH !!

C'est comme souvent, si on est ploi, qu'on demande respectueusement, souvent, on obtient !! plutôt que de grogner dans sa barbe sans jamais demander et aussi chercher à comprendre, car "la critique est aisée, mais l'art est difficile", donc, il y a des choses aussi impossibles à réaliser; mais qui se justifient et se comprennent.

Bravo François
+1 itou

Nick

+1 , j aime les gens qui font avancer les choses , qui éssaient du moins intelligemment

Trés bonne initiative .
Je suis curieux de voir leur réponse (s'il y en a une....)

L'an dernier, suite à des problèmes de tendons d'Achille j'ai du annuler ma participation à l'Embrunman. J'ai demandé à être remboursé avec à l'appui de ma demande un certificat médical. J'ai eu droit à une réduction de 80 euros sur mon inscription de 2006!

Il a été confondu triathlon et banal objet de consommation. C'est vrai, la participation à un Ironman se décide du jour au lendemain, c'est comme s'acheter un banal appareil ménager, vous entrez dans le magasin et vous ressortez avec et si cela ne vous convient pas au bout de quelques jours, on vous l'échange par un autre !

Je n'ai pas vraiment apprécié la méthode, c'est de l'abus. J'ai écrit à la fédération mais je n'ai pas eu de réponse. Si le président de la Fédé est présent à Embrun ou une autre course cette année, j'irais directement lui en parler. Il est là pour ça aussi non ? Je pense que c'est aussi à la fédération d'intervenir à ce niveau.

Plusieurs bons points pour le club de triathlon de Dijon qui un mois plus tôt m'avait remboursé mon inscription et avait déjà procédé ainsi à mon égard alors que j'avais fait une mauvaise chute à vélo deux jours avant la course et que j'avais du annuler ma participation, c'était en 2002.

Wil.

je ne manquerai pas de vous donner ce qui suit...a condition bien sur que j'en ai le droit.
Une personne qui envoie un email a le droit de demander a ce que l'email reste confidentiel. Dans ce cas, je pourrais tjs dire quel est le contenu de l'email, mais pas faire un copier-coller.
J'avais un email de Paula ce matin qui dit qu'elle va faire suivre a Graham Fraser (le big boss de IM North America).

F

J'ai envoye le lien de l'assurance de Roth a PNF.
C'est une excellente idee. (reste a voir si IMNA ne va pas dire sur: et l'assurance coutera $450)

Et Fertic ? En général il répond quand on lui écrit.

La reponse de Graham Fraser:

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"Hello Francois,

Thanks for your ideas. I have read the slowtwitch thread and find it quite interesting. I try to avoid it in most cases because when it comes to discussion of race issues it is usually a group of people making comments with very little true information on the subject matter. Not their fault they just not are in the day to day loop.



My position is not one which is likely to ever be one to win a popularity case which after 21 years of doing this I have come to accept. Someone has to make the decisions and take the public reaction in order for things to move forward. The one nice thing about our sport is the passion athletes for the sport and the time they spend creating ideas which make it better. We do this all day, every day in our office. The difference I face verses the individual is that I have to look at it in a much bigger context. What is right for the sport, the community, the athletes, my staff, and the health of the business as well..yes this includes that nasty word= profitability…something I have an obligation to for everyone involved, including the athletes..if I run a poor business, it helps no one.



So what do we have to contend with when putting on a race.



1/ being good to a community so we can host an event each year. We are involved with community programs, sponsor things, invest our time also.In Lake Placid we started a cc running program ,swim team. Coached , funded,..etc..and it is fun



2/ building a volunteer base for each event. We have to find,manage and support over 4000 volunteers for each IM event. Plus about 1200 for the halfs..close to 30,000 a year. We have to build a medical team of 200 plus in each community. This is are #1 main priority to building an event for you to have a first class experience. This includes year round programs and activities in each community. Many athletes never understand what they get for their $ at an IM ..this is the most important part. We have incentive programs for volunteers, banquets,…



3/ we have to have a full time professional staff who need to be trained, motivated and compensated. We need to pay them appropriately to be “professionals’ to run first class events. They are incredibly dedicated and when people say IMNA…in any context it is these people who they are talking about .The very people who work harder and more passionately than any group you will ever meet. We gave 30 people on our payroll and another 15-20 crew who cone to each event. We have offices in each race location, warehouses,etc..everyone has to travel, be fed, and housed.. they all have medical insurance..etc.



Plus they once in awhile need to hear good things about their work..



There Are so many other componets which have to happen to put on a race,,permits, police and the planning to make it safe., ambulance and medical support..supplies..come visit a race warehouse during race week. We now rent up to 20 + trucks to deliver clean bottled water and Gatorade so it is safe..verses the old days of mixing gatoarade and water from hoses..

We have an on site film and edit team to make DVDs for the next day AT the banquets..and a team which stay up all night to duplicate them..wer have a TV production team making a TV show on site to air race day in the evening in CDL and wisc..



We have Prize money, license fees, insurancem accountantsm and insurance..tv production cost,shipping..etc..



Why is this said..



We base our revenue streams on our costs. Which have gone up as we 1/ add better service 2/ professionalise our team to put on better events 3/ Have increased costs of supplies and in the communities



Simple economics of most companies would base the prices on supply and demand. We sell out our races in one day in most cases. What would traditional businesses do in this case..many athletes work in the business world..what would they do In their industries.??



We have had the same entry fee for three years. I am an economics major and I do not follow what I learned in university..why??



I have always based our business on the model that 1/ athletes pay for the cost of the race with their entry fees 2/ our profits come from being good business people and making it on sponsors, merchandise ..etc….ahtletes should pay the cost of the event they are doing

Now how do we come up with policies which are fair..

Firstly..many people will do anything to just get what they want or need..that is why the government has so many policies and restrictions..to protect against the people who will stretch things or just simply abuse them..


Refund Policies

Selling out quick does change things..otherwise athletes are right..it may be different.but it is not done to be BAD at customer service..I actually take more pride in putting on quality events and giving great life experiences than just making $..not a good way to lead your life and those that only focus on the $ rarely achieve it. There is more to life . the one thing that will get me worked up is to be accused of this.

*we have tried different systems over the years..

-we can’t allow transfers to other races..there all full..and we would end up with 3000 in IMC and then no one would be happy.

-we do have budgets and yes ..we need to protect ourselves to remain viable. 3 years ago at IMC when we had fires some athletes wondered if they would get hteir $ back if the race was cancelled. Unfotunaltely..no..we spend every $ whether you run through the course or not..I personally cannot take all the risk.we need athletes to assunme their 1-2000 of the risk ..verses me taking 2000-2000 of the risk. This really is a business owned by one husband and wife..not IBM..

-the full refund or $350 refund..there has to be a deterent to make people serious about taking a entry ,..there are only so many..with no deterent people could sign up for multiple races..decide which one to do later..does not work in a full race environment

-waiting lists..did this at IMC for years..NIGHTMARE!. athletes would call constantly irate because they did not know wehter to train..book things..in towns which had full hotels usually..they would get nasty..ask for favours. Because it is just one favour..meanwhile it was all of them asking the same thing. If you will come volunteer to man the phones we could try it for one race! Really it is not fair to anyone

-full refunds due to illness injury.as soon as you open this up everyone abuses..done it..everyone knows a doc who will right them a note..and are we suppose to be the ones to judge which diseases should be accepted// not a realistic and to emotional..are we compassionate.absolutley. me than you will ever know.

-economics..yes it is a factor.what business out there does not evaluate it. We could go to a higher entry..more rebate..but then the ones who do race are upset..I do know one thing. If WTC was not owned by the present owners and IMNA by my wife and I you would see a totally different economic situation At IM races. In reality those who complain the most would likely play out true supply and demand if they were in charge. Why..because most businesses do and they do it everyday in their businesses. We have tried to be fair for 20+ years and will always do so..but we do make a profit and intend to.

All this said. I do get defensive over the negativity people can spew out without thought or knowledge. Why. Because when you do it you are doing it to or staff, communities, volunteers and everyone who works all year to put on world class events (which I and all are very ,very proud of)..it is my job to help educate and clarify positions..and listen for good ideas which we do use when they are truly good ideas, not just jabber..and insults.

But is it not great that we live in apart of the worls where we can make our own decscions. Our events are not for everyone. Our goal is to please everyone , but that is impossible in a world of so many opinions and different people. But if we please 95% AND have 20,000+ athletes a year fulfill a dream a year. We sleep well at night.

Wherever you decide to race. Best of luck. The important thing is to race and enjoy such a great lifestyle..and keep it positive

Graham Fraser

Post if you wish..

Ma reponse a la reponse de Graham (discussion en cours...et des idees emergent...)
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Hi Graham,

first off, profitability is not a nasty word. You run a business, pay people, and need to protect your business and your employees. Fair enough.
As I said, there are things that I probably hadn't thought about and I am glad you address them. I have done several of your races and they are ALWAYS very well organized. At least those that I have done.

I understand that managing the waiting list on a case by case basis is a bit of an issue and if this is
the way it was done at IMC, well, no wonder this created a lot of headaches. However, considering pretty much the whole registration thing is now done online, the implementation of a waiting list is a really simple
thing to do. I'm fairly sure active.com could add the functionality in 1 day.

The refund is a sensitive subject. I do entirely agree that unless there are strict rules, it will be abused.
However, there are some cases that justify such a refund. In the thread on slowtwitch, you can see a link I posted about what Quelle Challenge is doing. Of course, it would be more expensive here as insurance costs are higher in the US, but they basically have an insurance that allow people to withdraw with a full refund (I think a refund less admin fees would be fair) in very special circumstances
-death in the family
-accident (say hit by a car)
etc.

not things like 'I got a cold and can't race' to protect the race.

You have a terrific product. No doubt about this. But it's always possible to improve it. And it's not because someone will criticize aspects of it that the person doesn't like/respect the product. I've seen you guys work to put races on and you're definitely doing a great job...Just expressing concerns that more than 5% of athletes have and where a bit of thinking/collaboration between organizers and athletes would go a long way.

definitely agree with your last sentence!

cheers

Francois

Plusieurs bons points pour le club de triathlon de Dijon qui un mois plus tôt m'avait remboursé mon inscription et avait déjà procédé ainsi à mon égard alors que j'avais fait une mauvaise chute à vélo deux jours avant la course et que j'avais du annuler ma participation, c'était en 2002.

Yes !! pareil !! en 2004, blessure deux semaines avant, claquage, envoi du certif et remboursement une semaine après !! BRAVO et merci pour la rapidité aux Dijonnais !! Ce qui ne fut pas le cas pour un autre club que je ne citerai pas, pour qui je n'ai par contre aucune rancune et ils le savent d'ailleurs c'est juste mon côté chambreur qui ressort !!